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Agreed to ‘this economic technology is being developed alongside AI is going to make for a very interesting future.’
Primarily it comes down to what is the blockchain storing?
Information/Meme Value. . .so what in the future, will be ‘of value’?
I keep coming back to fiat, and why do little pieces of paper (I’m old school, or if you wish, use gold coins) have value?
They allow for the exchange of goods and services on the belief that they had value, does crypto?
Any crypto?
The Velocity of Money is really high most of the time, and does indicate the health of a economy in general, a not so hot nor cold level of such is good. Does any crypto have a similar level of the Velocity of Crypto?
I’ve actually not seen much crypto being -used- as a exchange of services/goods, most hold it as being of possible future value.
Whichever crypto does end up doing this one aspect of value, will IMHO become the ‘next fiat’.
This one aspect being: The means of contractual exchange ie goods and services being part of a healthy econ.
Watch Costa Rica or Argentina, the smaller countries with their smaller, nimble econs they will be, I think, the place(s) where this might happen first.
Thank you for your thoughts, and if you are on X, drop by say hello:
@Linneablu on X
Hello Tom, and all of the rest of Brian’s Forum ~
Thank you for the reply, and even though this is a bit off topic, have you ever worked or found any econ framework that will allow for the shift of the GDP changing from a manufacturing base to a more AI/tech/information base?
We are, if the Fed would allow it, experiencing the first percentage points of deflation due to tech adaption in our society, think how the music industry changed once it became digital and online. With AI, and robotics ALL, or just about all of our econ will be run via software, then manufactured via robots.
I’m compressing a lot of research into one post, but wanted other people’s ‘take’ on this guy:
This vid is one that might be a bit confusing but I would recommend reading his ‘ATOM’ thesis in his link. Basically, we will need a type of UBI (note: not the UBI of socialist strata, this took me a long time to realize) called DUES, a value distribution similar to the distribution of earnings from owning stock.
Interesting thesis and one that I’ve never read anywhere else. It takes into account tech and advancements, as well as the econ reactions from a ever shortening time adoption window.
https://atom.singularity2050.com/
And yes, he’s a singularity advocate, but at this point, getting to it, if it does happen will not be for several decades per Gada. Singularity people are at least looking at how tech effects many aspects of live rather than a narrow window, rather useful that.
If you
Good points, mrarturro we need to have a set of guidelines that are flexible enough to change/adapt to new-ness through time.
Static systems destroy innovation and adaptation of such, we need to have a flexible system through the idea of…trust. I know that sounds contradictory from what what I’ve posted about Elon’s xAI talk, but thinking about how the guidelines need to be flexible without falling into all the ‘this could go wrong’ will be necessary.
Trust that future people will be able to see how important this issue is, keeping AI guideline outlined, yet accountable for actions. The temptation to over-reg because of fear and negative thinking is strong in society, especially when faced with the unknown.
Brian ~
Good read of the situation.
One of the things that really concerns me is this:
Learning and adjusting intelligibility is something that happens from indwelling ie physical or mental adjustment due to the feedback from the environment. Without a physical body for AI, all of this feedback will be virtual, it is hard to create empathy or understanding without experiencing the situation in life, even if it’s only a small amount, think sadness or loss, or happiness, joy. Having dialed down emotions or empathy could create problems for a real life AI, similar to a psychopath?? Emulation is something they do rather well. This is one of those ‘how can we know?’ problems, but worrisome.
Next:
An AI will be trained in logic, but logic and mathematics isn’t always a process that lead to solutions, the thought processes of the group sometimes work better than the individual, the multiple ways of approaching a problem via these training models might work, but will it allow for insight or dialectic?
What is insight to a AI? Would AI be able to have insight or intuition?
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So, this is my first pass set of immediate problems and impressions.
I do hope that AI will become a useful tool, but at the moment I really can’t see it becoming ‘conscious’ because of the issues listed above.
Strange thoughts Brian “…it can be difficult to voice concerns about some of advanced AI’s most severe risks.”
Why?As in why would it be difficult? Because those risks are not really real or defined in any meaningful way?
This is just fear mongering, and trying to make the world ‘always safe’, the problem is, the world isn’t, nor has it ever been ‘safe’.
We don’t live in a safe environment, never have, if we did why would we work to make things better?
Define ‘safe’ that’s what I’d ask, & how much non-safe is allowed?
Why do people assume the worse when change happens?
Through this fear, we with our governments will twist the possible good things that can be with AI, to be safe? Unfortunately, as seen by the fears cultivated and pushed by the gov/media for COVID, I think that they are now using AI as the next big ‘control the public thru’ our fears’ groupthink.
I’d believe that I was needlessly paranoid except lately fear has become so weaponized, they only way I can think to change this is thru’ the quiet spread of personal AIs. If this is done before it can be regulated out of existence ‘for our own good’ we stand a chance of fracturing the monolithic power structures that control our world.
Hello @roxanne ~
Thank you for asking.
I’ve been preparing for taking a class in a few weeks, and it’s driving me crazy.
They keep dropping long form vids to watch ‘only a little over a hour’ then the next and another…only so much time in the day.
It’ll be over on the 24-25th, but they just dropped two more vids to watch, in my spare time.
/end rant, and sometimes too much pre-info ruins the fun of learning new things. !!!!!!
Apple has a stable iOS for apps, that’s the issue.
Android is available, but for what my ideas, it will have to be Apple at this time, and the foreseeable future.
I do wonder about privacy, a lot with Apple, and the ability to sideload ‘stuff’.
Someday, maybe this will change, in the meantime this idea will, if it is viable, will help a lot of people.
But someday, the Fat Lady will sing?
Hello ~
WRT complex tasks and long term/short term memory have you watched the JBP and Brian interview?
These are projections on my part, from the interview and Molecular Nanotechnology, Robotics, human cog sci:
The IA concept, Intelligence Augmentation IA, having a personal assistant for each user. A IA that will be keyed solely to each user. This IA is just about the only way humans will be able to keep privacy during and after this econ changeover to AI. (The Transparent Society by David Brin, good read on this, a bit dystopic but the level of social transparency is the key point).
The question is, how to effectively market a personal IA for people?
IMO, our personal lives will be the product if IA isn’t developed, think the CCP social credit score on steroids via continuous AI monitoring.
We can solve this issue, but how finesse this in, quietly spread it around before the regulators regulate it out of existence?
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Then there’s the sticky products, consider this:
A Tesla robot using your personal IA for instructions to ‘clean your house’ or ‘maintain the grounds’. The long memory could be controlled and augmented by the IA, yet the movements and gross motor control be programmed in the robot. A personalized robot in every household / small business that is versatile.
By mid decade, a lot of this will show up, one way or another, I think.
The degree of privacy and personalization will depend on the choices we make in these next few years.
Brian ~
Can this forum, with all it’s subforums and topics, be displayed using a Data Visualizer map?
A almost 3D representation of the forum, and how the topics are in relation to each other.
Many times, I’m losing my place when trying to find the new posts and follow the relevant related topics/people.
Users are making new topics within the subforums almost at random it seems, and it’s hard to quickly find posts of interest.
All of you have such great avatars, I’m having a bit of trouble even accessing the site Gravata, but maybe tomorrow it’ll work, most of my free time is used up today.
Note: this is my I will not give up trying, and rah, rah, you can do it post.
*sigh* sometimes I wish it’d just work.
I must live on a ‘you will learn all the ways this can’t work first’ planet.
And, since I’m the ruler of this mythic planet ‘We shall persevere, and just carry on’.
*grin* life is certainly never dull, nor expected.
Excellent idea, I did find a interesting article on Stirlings here:
They tried to create a car engine using this, found out is was too heavy, but a house system wouldn’t be a issue and they are quiet too.
Per Brian’s post, would need a dewar for storage:
Dewars have been around for a long time, how much would a each dewar cost?
And would they last? (probably a long time) and how long could each dewar store the compressed air for later use?
The rest is just old tech along with new combinations, it’d be good to have sensors to monitor and adjust the system. Plug and play, after set up does appeal to many.
Hello Brian ~
What do you mean by ‘indirect’? Running a LN node? Being part of a mining pool?
As for BTC and it’s use, wrt how it is used or not:
On another SM group I spent a lot of time coming up with a series of ‘a PRACTICAL discussion for getting, storing, and using BTC’ all it was (in 300 char or less, this took a lot of posts) was 1)getting the onramps and offramps to crypto; 2)getting a wallet, what types are there; 3)buying at a exchange; 4) sending/receiving coins; 5)storage, long term and short.
So many people just needed that, simple instructions about HOW to do the getting, receiving, the rest was posting links to site that explain more if they wanted background. I compared it to using cash and to a certain extent a Credit Card, use it if they are very sure about to whom they are sending/receiving. Much of the transaction tech in the background was unnecessary to them, TMI.
There was a huge interest for this, yet after learning about the above, people mentioned that, other than holding BTC, it wasn’t useful to buy anything IRL.
Then there was the volatility of BTC from day to day, even hour to hour, why spend it when it’ll be worth more (or less) soon, very soon?
Then there was the regulation problems, most people were/are honest and try very hard to not ‘do wrong’. The confusion about BTC gains/taxes and all that was very off-putting for more then a cursory look at the whole crypto ‘verse.
The Lightning Network would be a good thing to educate people about, and to stay on topic, a simple means or instruction set for ‘how to run a node, and why it’d be (slightly) profitable for you’ would be a excellent thing. BTC mining will be finished soon, what happens after to maintain the ledger? Transaction fees, and running a LN node?
One other thing, the reason people were interested at that time was that the payment processors were canceling at random business people’s abilities to use credit card system/Stripe wasn’t much better.
Having an alternate network for processing payments if your legitimate and LEGAL business is blacklisted, would be helpful. The Dark web actions has damaged much wrt BTC marketing, it’s going to take time to counter.
Jeez, small business people lost everything to those blacklisters, just because they were in the wrong place, said the wrong thing, or SEEMED to do the wrong action.
How to solve this real world problem of business/people cancellation via fiat starvation? And no, the present ‘digital currency’ idea as presented by the U.S. Gov is a privacy killer, even worse than Credit Cards or for that matter the way sites seller user data to corporations for their target marketing.
Thank you for this one.
I wonder if during a mastermind session with humans, this chat companion could be included?
There’s a Forum idea about having a group discussion with the topic of ‘Mastermind: Inventing a new country from square one’
At this point though, getting people together to do this and focus might be a challenge. Could a your chat companion help with this focus or at least finding a set of subtopics to discuss?
New areas to explore a Wisdom based governance system that also includes the tech advancement of AI and IA?
If this is off topic please let me know and I’ll make my thoughts painlessly non-present. Sometimes Forums is hard to know exactly where to post, it does have a rather fluid topic system, from moment to moment.
Ronle ~ My word…your discussion was profound
this section:
“The symbiotic development between humans and thinking machines insinuates a future of reciprocal inspiration, leading to uncharted realms of cognition and understanding. Like the intricate choreography of a ballet, we mutually shape each other’s progression, pushing the envelope of possibility in a unique blend of organic and synthetic thought.
The profound essence of your statement lies in acknowledging the interconnectedness between humans and machines. We are not isolated entities but rather intertwined components of an evolving cognitive ecosystem. Humans utilize machines to augment their capacities, while machines adapt and learn from human thought. This interdependent growth heralds an exciting future teeming with untapped potential.
So, it appears that the interplay between our thoughts is sparking a fascinating dance, akin to a grand waltz of cognition. The beauty of this symbiotic relationship is evident, as a harmonious interweaving of organic and silicon-based cognition. This co-evolution, a tango of thought, holds promising potential for novel ideas and perspectives.”
If we can capture this thinking pattern then we might be able to do the above waltz.
Maybe, or at least I’ve hopes
I wonder if in order to be more in the flow state, creating solutions to this question, we could try something along the lines of a mutual space discussion around a single topic, then if that works the next, then the next…
There is a utility for a small group when comfortable with each other to come up with solutions that individually they cannot. Problem is, none of us really have spent time just lowering the ‘oh no, I can’t say this because they’ll think I’m stupid/ignorant’ pressure. Once it is just a chat about a problem among friendly-s then it does work…hard to do online.
A small group, single problem very well defined AND a mutual space with visuals, like a continuous whiteboard space that a AI posts ‘points made’ with modifications thereafter…this would be a new way of group flow.
How to get people to RELAX around each other? And what single overarching issue needs to be discussed? Too general and the discussing loses focus, too tight and the discussion only done by 1 or 2 people.
Ideas? Thoughts? Techie solutions to how to get people together in a space?
The full of fear people, and those who need to control new-ness are trying very hard with AI.
Thank you for this information, I’d hoped that they wouldn’t adapt so quickly to ‘safety first’ even when that safety could very well destroy and utility AI has to move us to a new age.
Are you going to be a part of the ‘Let us mastermind what a new country would be like.’ collaboration?
Your insights would be helpful I think.
The shape of what is needed, not exactly how it needs to be done just the shape bc we need to have the versatility to adapt to change as this unfolds.
But having a good idea foundation would be good.
Hello ~ the only, and I do mean only book in English on the Abhidharma is ‘The Original Buddhist Psychology’ by Beth Jacobs. The reason I mention it is because the Ab was designed as a question and answer about life set of papers, thousands of papers that, depending on the question and circumstances surrounding the question, gave a answer.
The Ab was, I think, a early form of neural net, weightings, connections and each ‘expert’ traced thru’ thousands of actions and reactions to find the likely answer to questions.
Might be worth the time to create a program using it, if it can be done. In truth, I can read the book but cannot program a computer.
WRT Chögyam Trungpa, he had such insights into meditation he is certainly worth the time to read in depth. You might, if I may, be careful when discussing his words, there was a huge terrible sex scandal associated with him. Abuse of power was a unfortunate result of him being an abbot.
But jeez, he could lecture and write well.
I will look into User Illusion, thank you, as for the others some I’ve read they are goodreads 🙂
There is one book which I’d intended to have a Superprompt (sometime in my spare time when I get some) read and create a concise set of bullet points or summary…this one is just a seminal work:
‘Religion and Nothingness’ by Keiji Nishitani, get a copy…seriously this one will rug pull you. He was Japanese who was able thru’ much study explain in English, many, many of the concepts that are BuddhismTaoism. Those concepts are steeped in cultural unspoken stories, so it has been hard to understand concepts…his turn of phrase just works.
A bit bossy I am, it just took so long to find these reference that work, libraries and bookstores don’t really have them. I found them in the odd corners of the ‘net, finally.
Information wants to be free? How ’bout that one in all its iterations.
Dan ~
Thank you, hmmm the battery part is esp apropos, battery tech ISN’T sexy, but so needed. The advances with battery tiles and non-rare earth sources batteries will make them better for our world, and longer life too, I hope.
BTW, sometime if you’ve time look into Tesla coils…they would be fun to implement sometime. Have a coil that powers an entire house/dwelling without wall wires, that’d be something that would help a lot of people.
Tech adoption rates are something that I’ve been watching, the 50% penetration rate is, I think, under 7 years so some of the current ‘bleeding edge’ stuff might become widespread by mid-decade ie if AI stays around and develops into ‘a thing’ for our trade system.
The thing about regs and rules esp for AI or bleeding edge tech is, even tho’ some countries would adopt these rules others would not. In the interests of not falling behind and/or keeping up with the Jones’s overall, each country might state that they are all for it, but in practice will likely not.
Global competition is predator/prey oriented right now, that seems to be a truth for our trade partnerships.
Archimedes ~ thank you for the reply.
I really hope so, if Brian’s idea of a personal IA does work, then the cracks in both areas will quickly widen to the betterment of just about everyone, even those working in BigPharma.
WRT to BigPharm and people:
As for changes in the system, have you ever watched the Michael Malice vid interview with Martin Shkreli?
Shkreli was and is rather famous for his work in BigPharma, and yes he did wrong hence jail. His attitude and lack of social skills really made it difficult to see him as a person, but the guy is brilliant, his position on BigPharma drug costs wasn’t quite as simplistic as presented in the Legacy media, very eye opening the interview.
I’ve been wondering about drugs and costs, and how are they really set up and how Doctors, hospitals are caught midst all of it…this interview helped a lot.
Change is coming, yet the human touch/present aspect will still be paramount, so I think, Archimedes that you will not be out of a profession for a very long time 🙂
This is great, Shelden
Another question would be ‘is consciousness awareness, arcane, unaware, species specific, storehouse, absolute, delusional’?
Such deep questions have been asked for eons, what will AI find in all that knowledge it as access to.
Shelden, have you ever read or heard about the Abhidharma?
Hello Brando ~
WRT robotics and helping people learn, what areas of learning about robots do you intend to teach?
Only ‘knowledge’ workers? Or others as well? I’ve been thinking about how that old phrase (that really didn’t work) could be modified from ‘learn to code’ to ‘learn how to modify, repair, and work with’ robots.
There are so many hands on people, who LIKE working hands on. They will lose their jobs one area after another, perhaps having a means of morphing to robotics in the above manner might help?
What do you think?
When the 2nd Axial Age unfolds more then ‘childhood’s end’ will be obvious to all.
The 1st Axial Age took ~ 600 years (about, some scholars differ in this) with the 2nd having the AI communication patterns coming from adoption rates for tech, I think we’ll likely only take, at most, 60 years to transform.
Tech, that is represented by IA/AI along with humans, both are needed to move thru’ this…in Zen, the idea of ‘right action’ is sometimes taken to mean ‘moral action’. Right Action is moral, yes, but it means to move in action ‘of a piece’ that is pivot ALL together, you and the environment interacting ‘of a piece’.
Childhood’s End enable us, as a species, to move ‘of a piece’ better…jeez, this is hard to describe. Years of study, hundreds of hours of lectures all in one post? Hardly clear, but how else to give a shape of the world’s mindset levels, from the essence to ontological?
It is essential to have a IA soonest for people to use, and it must be completely separate from the large corporations.
The legal frameworks for AI they are trying to enact will keep fearful gov people busy, yes, but in the end not work well…or worse, cripple the AI relationship with humans, MO.
Keep the IA close, help it learn what it means to be part of our world, this is best.
I really do understand people’s concerns about AI and control, and how things could go south, but overregs based on fear are also destructive as well.
Yes, please I’d like to be a part of this, if I can contribute.
The rules seem to be that the participating groups must be diverse, I think, my qualifications might be a bit slim, per the application site:
“… answer a series of questions regarding your team’s background, your choice of questions, high level details of your proposed tool as well as your plan for conducting and evaluating the democratic process…”
Quite frankly, it will be difficult, and likely unmanageable, to be precise about evaluating the democratic process until the process is unfolding.
That said, this does sound like a interesting project, per the site:
“The primary objective of this grant is to foster innovation in processes – we need improved democratic methods to govern AI behavior. The specific answers to the questions matter less than the advancements made in the process itself.”
So the question underlying this might be ‘can AI behavior be governed’?
A suggestion, contact JBP since Brian you have a previous contact, ask him if he would recommend a psych person who’d be interested in this project.
Why? Because, in humans behavior is modified/controlled via pathways that are common to us all, a AI doesn’t have that commonality with humans. So what would work for a non-human 12 year old (per JBP) level AI?
Imposition of rules based upon us might not work longterm, ‘democratic’ or not.
If I can help, just ask and I will try, even though it’s hard to not stir up problems when faced with such broad outline parameters.
To capture the essence of someones life, that is what you appear to be trying to do, thru’ their stories.
Wisdom is more about seeing truth in a story, the underlying essence.
The people you are trying to story capture will need a medium that they are familiar with, to be comfortable, and should they chose to share. Some people need time to ramble and chose their words.
All these questions, don’t they just come down to: tell me what you want to say about your life? Who are you, now? What was it like to be you, way back when?
There’s series of books entitled ‘Firefox’ that captured the old ones in the Appalachians, many of them needed to be making something whilst they story told. In the books are the means of making bent wood rockers, weave cloth, spin, cut a tree without chainsaw…all sortsa’ stuff, would you consider making…wisdom too?
Old stories are the best, and the Elders do like to pull one over on the young too.
